Visible Conversations: Jessica Bellamy & Tré Seals

Jessica Bellamy is an international speaker, Adobe Creative Residency alumna, and award-winning infographic designer. Founder of the social enterprise GRIDS: The Grassroots Information Design Studio, Jessica created the award-winning Infographic Wheel and the workshop series Infographics for Scoial Change: A Graphic Ally Hackathon.

Tré Seals has been named one of the top changemakers shaping the future of design and culture by The Dots UK, an Ascender by the Type Directors Club, and has been interviewed by the likes of Adobe and Hoefler & Co. Beyond accolades, Seals opened a studio practice and founded Vocal Type Co., the second black-owned font foundry in America with the mission of diversifying design, preserving culture, and, naturally, crafting typefaces.

Jessica Bellamy and Tré Seals talk about their career influences, where they're finding their inspiration now, and diversity in the design industry.

Jessica: So Tré, what are you currently working, writing, or even just stewing on at the moment? 

Tré: Well, I’m working on four typefaces, one of them based on the infographics of W.E.B. Du Bois—doing the whole family based on that. I’m working on one based on a women’s suffrage march back in 1915, organized by Carrie Chapman Catt, she was like Susan B. Anthony’s successor. And I’m looking into more Asian-American history, Asian-American protests, because they were so close with the Black Panther Party. And I’m making a font based on the original vertical sign hung outside of the Stonewall Inn.

Jessica: Heck yea!

Tré: How about you?

Jessica: I’m currently working on starting a non-profit with a colleague of mine. It’s called the “Root Cause Research Center—it’s a research center that is led by grassroots organizers and that teaches community members whatever technical skills necessary to do research and to be investigators, so they’re not just the test subjects of studies that involve disparities around health. It’s been a lot of my time lately. (laughs)

Tré: I bet—me and some friends tried starting a non-profit a couple of years ago and it was so much.

Jessica: It is, it’s a lot. The paperwork and all that stuff. Fiscal sponsorship–we have started getting donations though, so that’s really good.

Tré: Yeah, we tried getting grants for a while…there’s a lot involved.

Jessica: There’s a lot involved, a lot involved. So, next question: what’s fascinating, inspiring, angering, or comforting to you right now? 

Tré: That’s a long question! I’ll combine fascinating and inspiring—just, everything we’ve been talking about at Bend Design. Like what everyone is doing is, like, I don’t know, I never really get to see or hear about what people are doing to diversify design, and just improve minority culture as a whole, and it was just really fascinating and inspiring for me to see so many people doing that. 

Angering, pretty much everything on the political front. I mean, I deleted my twitter just because I got tired of receiving notifications from the White House and I don’t even follow them. (Iaughs) But I guess, comforting too, just to see so many people doing so much to combat what the administration is trying to do.

Tré: How about you?

Jessica: Let’s see…fascinating right now…I agree, seeing what everybody’s doing. One thing I talk about a lot when people ask me about infographics is finding the best point for intervention. Whether your intervention is graphics or not graphics, however you’re intervening, and so I feel like there’s so many that people we’ve met at the conference that are intervening at different points and in different ways, and it’s like, that’s definitely feeding my ideology and, I feel like, broadening perspective of possibility, which is super healthy, right? It’s great.

Angering, same thing, political sphere. It’s always angering. Comforting, uh, tea! I am exploring new avenues of tea and I’m loving it and it’s what’s bringing me joy in so many days. Like I just tried the tea at breakfast today and that was really good. Multiple flavors, and the smell was…healing. (laughs)

Tré: Definitely, definitely, I’m so done with coffee.

Jessica: Yeah! Right, don’t you think creatives have an unhealthy relationship with coffee? Entrepreneurs, definitely.

Tré: Yes, like I told you my story about when I was in college, I was eating chocolate covered espresso beans and falling asleep! (laughing) So bad.

Jessica: It’s insane. It’s so bad. Your heart was probably like, uh - uh -uh. (laughs)

Tré: Right?! Exactly!

Jessica: Yeah, and it does terrible things for anxiety.

Tré: It just raises your stress levels and everything.

Jessica: Oh yes. I think one of the most valuable lessons I’ve ever learned from someone that I’ve worked with before, was someone who trained me when I was in that research job that I was in, and she said remember that you can always slow down the room. Use your pacing to put things at a level where you can manage and navigate, and I feel like I apply that in so many areas of my life nowadays. Really good advice. Thanks Lauren Dobson, wherever you are! (I think she might have changed her last name, but that’s okay.) 

Should I ask you the next one?

Tré: Sure! 

Jessica: How are you currently using design as a tool for activism, action, or change?

“I love seeing other people apply my typefaces to things that are not culturally related”

Tré: I think just by making my typefaces and kind of using design as a way of change. For me, I’ve always seen certain typefaces used to represent minorities. I’m always seeing Franklin Gothic and always black weights to represent black people. And I feel like it’s very stereotypical for people to always use those select typefaces, like Trade Gothic, or just any Gothic. And there’s way more than that. And I love seeing other people apply my typefaces to things that are not culturally related. Like I’ve seen one of my fonts based on Martin Luther King’s “I Am A Man” signs used in a European fashion magazine where it was just highlighting white men, and I’m like, that’s so awesome. Just seeing it out of context, I think it’s beautiful. 

Jessica: That is beautiful, and amazing. Did you just stumble across it, or did they let you know that they used it?

Tré: They let me know. I just feel like a lot of people don’t read as much as they used to, so they don’t really know the backstory, but I still think it’s awesome that they used it in that application.

Jessica: That’s super, super neat. And I agree, yeah, that when it comes to the visual elements that are used to talk about us or to describe us visually, people do lock themselves in a box. They do, and it makes me think, have you ever done any work on this, reading on this, but the Black aesthetic—how does that factor into your framework?

Tré: It’s interesting to me because I always see the Black aesthetic as very utilitarian, because they’re so closely attributed to a lack of access to technology and resources. I’m always looking into collages, and just black and white on different colored papers, and different colored papers, and different things like that, which I see a lot in civil rights. I saw a flyer for the “March on Washington” and it was just like Futura Bold with a black and white half-tone picture and Times New Roman. You see that a lot of that in the Black Panther magazines and things like that, which I think is really interesting, and I try to apply that to the website and type-specimens.

Jessica: Your website is beautiful by the way. I was spending some time on it yesterday.

Tré: I appreciate it.

Jessica: One thing about the Black aesthetic, I think I’m most fascinated with the creative unrest, the tension involving our identity because of how we’re seen versus how we see ourselves. There’s a lot of power behind that, but also like…intention is the best word I can think of for it. It kind of makes me think about the way Liz Jackson thinks about using disability as a tool for creativity. It’s like using all of that inherent trauma, I guess, to go into the work.

Tré: Definitely. I’ve been looking more into W.E.B. Du Bois and his work, since I’ve been working on this font, and I didn’t realize he came up with the term ‘double consciousness.’

Jessica: Yeah!

Tré: Yeah, and I was reading his description of it, and it’s like our race is the only race that really sees ourselves through the eyes of the rest of the world, and basically our life’s mission is trying to merge our Black self with our American self to create a better and truer self, which I feel like the Black aesthetic is kind of striving for.



“the nature of graphic design being so competitive and there being this huge push to mimic whatever the contemporary aesthetic is, how much assimilation we do as designers”

Jessica: Yeah, that’s a good point. I’m glad you’re recording this. You know, Sylvia Harris, who was a designer that I know AIGA has given a lot of recognition for, but she has some writings that she did about her teaching experiences. When she would have classes that had a few black students, she realized how much those students felt intimidated by the larger masses, and with the nature of graphic design being so competitive and there being this huge push to mimic whatever the contemporary aesthetic is, how much assimilation we do as designers when we’re especially in the initial phase, before we learn that we can break all the rules and just kind of do what we want sometimes, if we ever get to do what we want. But she used to do these projects with her black students specifically, where she would create a space that was more Afro-centric in the music that was being played and the way the space was cultivated, and then just ask the students to design what came to mind, what came to heart, in whatever medium they needed. I always wanted to see what those pieces looked like. And she’d do these experiments and stuff—it makes it sound harsher than it was, but it’s so interesting.

Tré: I don't think I would have explored my Black self if I didn’t have Andrea Pippins as a professor. And looking at her work, and how does she embrace natural hair and show that in her work and her coloring books and things like that. If it weren’t for her, I wouldn’t have known Gail Anderson or Bobby Martin, and I’m like, oh, we can make it. 

Jessica: Yeah, Gail Anderson, she’s still doing stuff.

Tré: I’m like, I want to be like that. I want to be sixty-something years old and just doing.

Jessica: Yeah, exactly. Being asked to do covers for magazines. Super cool. Super, super cool.

Tré: So, how are you using design as a tool for activism, action, or change?…slash everything (laughs).

Jessica: (laughs) All the things I do! It’s definitely my main driver. everything is guided by social change, social initiatives. It’s the only thing I feel interested in, I guess. To be honest, when I was in graphic design school, I told my professors I was never going to work in a corporate sphere. I was outwardly rebelling. Like if we were going to go to a field trip to a corporation, I was like, I don’t need that, it’s not pertinent to where I’m going to go. And then they’d be like, but where are you going to go, Jessica? And I’d be like, “I don’t know, I don’t know where I’m going, but it’s not this. I can tell you that, promise!” I’m pretty sure if I couldn’t do what I do now, I probably wouldn’t be doing graphic design anymore. I probably would have stayed in research. 

Tré: I feel like I kind of just discovered that when I started working. Through this staffing agency, I worked for a bunch of companies, and I learned a lot about what kinds of clients I wanted to work with and what kind of designer I wanted to be. Like, I had to do a project for the National Coal Coalition promoting coal as clean fuel. And I simply don’t like lying to people and being dishonest.

Jessica: …it’s not clean! (laughs)

“I started doing more pro bono work, my pro bono work looked better than anything else I was doing. That’s kind of what led into Vocal.”

Tré: I know! I don’t want to do that kind of stuff. And, I did a lot of work for real estate agencies and the more I worked on it, I was like, this stuff doesn’t mean anything. Like all the promotion stuff means nothing. And I found out, as I started doing more pro bono work, my pro bono work looked better than anything else I was doing. That’s kind of what led into Vocal.

Jessica: That’s so true though, like when you’re actually feeling the content, you devote more of yourself, more of your interest, more of your time.

Tré: Early on in college, I used to want to do projects for Nike and Coke and all these big commercial companies making cool things. And while I'm open to working with these companies, I think the type of work I want to do has changed.

Jessica: I mean it’d be cool, if when Nike did that campaign with Kaepernick they used one of your fonts or something. That would have been badass.

Tré: Right, the Black History Month collection, I’m perfectly fine with. But don’t ask me to make a logo for somebody or something.

Jessica: I know, some people just want logos, I mean, logos are important.

Tré: A lot of people who want them, don't need them.

Jessica: Agreed, find yourself a nice font that you like.

Tré: That’s it.

Jessica: You don’t necessarily need a branded mark or something like that.

So, how do you think the political climate is aesthetically influencing design right now? 

Tré: In every way.

Jessica: Tell me about it!

Tré: I feel weird about it because Vocal wasn’t inspired by the political climate even though it was made during the same time. And I start seeing all these people using my fonts for like protest signs, and I’m like cool. And then I see people making protest signs for people to download, and we’ve seen the rise of non-profits that weren’t there in 2015. I feel like that’s affecting the way we see color and how we use it, and how we use our typefaces, I think it just made us more conscious. It made designers more conscious.

Jessica: Hell ya. Agreed. Because when it comes to that grassroots organizing piece, you need something that’s easily replicated and can be replicated fast and with low or high means, whatever means that that group has. You referenced Black Lives Matter in your presentation, you talked about their aesthetic, that the original brand was developed by this design collaborative, like it was like a co-op, equally owned by all the designers kind of thing out of Oakland, California. That’s part of the reason they designed it the way they did, so that it wouldn’t be too hard to replicate. But they had this initial drawing that brought in Trayvon Martin and has him holding, what are those—like daisies, and they have the seeds that float off?

Tré: Oh, dandelions?

Jessica: Dandelions! And they’re flying everywhere because of the “we didn’t know that we were seeds” sort of conversation. This really beautiful thing that should be a mural, it probably is a mural somewhere in California. But there was a piece that they first designed that inspired the logo and all that other stuff. You got me thinking about a lot of other things when you were speaking the other day. Yeah, I was just trying to keep notes, and take pictures, and all the stuff.

Tré: I know—I have so many slides. (laughing)

Jessica: But that’s so good. I love it! I have a lot of slides too. I finished I think slightly early, I was at like 150, if not closer to 200 slides.

Tré: It could have been a two-day lecture series. Just for people to digest it all.

Jessica: Yes, just for people to digest it, take some time, because there’s so many principles too, that you operate by when you're doing your work that’d be really good for people interested in the field.

What are three things that have happened in your life that have made you who you are or led you to where you are?

Tré: Well, the first one is easy. That would be my brain tumors, because they forced me to mature at a young age, and it made me care more about things that I probably shouldn’t have cared about at that age. What else…probably, third grade was the first time I experienced racism. 

Jessica: Talk about that experience, because I don’t know if you went into detail. I don’t think you did…

Tré: Well, I hear this from a lot of Black people, where it’s like you go to a Catholic school and it’s the most racist place you’ve ever gone. And I was in a class of thirty kids, and there were only five people of color, there was one asian, one hispanic, two blacks, and actually there might have just been four, and we were all so divided. Because there were ones that just kind of inserted themselves into the school's culture, and the ones that just sort of stood off because they didn’t fit in and they knew they would never fit in. And I was the one that knew I’d never fit in. I was bullied from time to time, and the worst part was the kids that were the most racist and did the most bullying were the teachers’ kids…

Jessica: Thought they’d get away with it most likely…

Tré: Exactly. And it was weird because it was in third grade when I found out I had the second brain tumor. I got out of school two months early, and when I’d come back to visit the teachers, all the kids would come around to hug me and talk about how I looked so gangster with my bandana on, because I had to shave my head. And in my mind, I’m like “What do you mean? Gangster? I’m just trying to make sure you don’t see half of my head shaved.”

Jessica: Yeah, and the scar was there…

Tré: Yeah, exactly. Just the fact that all these white kids are calling me a gangster just felt weird. You know? Like I never associated a bandana with being a gangster back then. And then a year later, I went to an international day school where I started learning about Black history and all these things that we made, like traffic lights and light bulb filaments, like all kinds of stuff. And I’m like, if you hate us, then why do you use all these things? 

Jessica: Right, and well they don’t want to credit us either. 

Tré: Right, racism just became so confusing. We made all these things—why don’t you like us when you use them every day. 

Jessica: Every day, engrained in your life. You wouldn’t be able to be without us.

Tré: And then, after that, fast forward, way forward to 2014. At Stevenson University, they have this artist in residence program where they bring out some sort of designer, photographer, philosophical theorist, all kinds of stuff. And in 2014, they brought out this designer named Scott Thares and he owned a design agency in Minneapolis called Wink. And this is probably one of the most fun projects I did at that time—he gave us three choices. I don’t remember what the other two were, but I chose to make a packaging and branding design for this organic health bar cooking company called Dueling Grandmas. I made it like a playing card, where the grandmas are like the queens, the matriarchs of the family, and instead of ceptors, they have wooden spoons. 

Jessica: I can picture it! I’m there.

Tré: He loved it so much. And every time an artist in resident would come, I’d send them a thank you note because that’s just something I liked to do and he replied with an internship offer and I’m like, oh snap, cool. I was taking an internship class that semester so it was perfect. I moved out to Minneapolis for two or three months, something like that, and I got like 95% of my college education. I started learning about design books and how it’s so much better than the internet. And I don’t know if he’s a wizard or something, but the last day of work, he was like “Tré, you’re a really amazing designer and whether you’ll come back and work for me or not, I don’t know, but wherever you go to work, make sure you don’t become a wrist.” And I’m like, “a wrist, what do you mean?” And he said, “A person that just sits at their computer and draws whatever their boss tells them to do without putting any thought to it.” And after that, I went to work full time for this staffing agency where they'd sent me to work for eight or nine different companies over the course of a year and a half to two years, here and there, and every time I was miserable at a job, or felt like I was being a wrist, I would get carpal tunnel. And when I would leave that job, or the contract was up, the carpal tunnel would go away…so I got a thing for that.

Jessica: Haha!! That’s excellent advice! And I love that you said like 95% of your design education came from this wonderful person who connected you with the saying.

Tré: Exactly, like I started learning about other designers. Like I had never heard of Aaron Draplin, but there was this logo I made a year prior that looks like something Aaron Draplin made, and I’m like, who is that? 

Jessica: He did the Obama logo. 

Tré: Exactly, and I’m learning about Bobby Martin and all kinds of stuff.

Jessica: Yes, and I feel like books are the only space where you can dive in deep into niches.

Tré: Yeah, his library was amazing. He had a shelf dedicated to different countries. He had a Japanese shelf, and a Chinese shelf, and an African shelf, and all these different cultures you can explore. Not just logo books and design books.

Jessica: That guy sounds amazing!

Tré: Definitely. How about you? What are three things that happened in your life that made you who you are or led you to where you are?

Jessica: Three things. I definitely know one is that project I talked about in my presentation. I was still working in research and I was doing community organizing in my free time and we ended up doing a project within Smoketown, the neighborhood I grew up in, to combat gentrification. 

Tré: I think you talked about that in D.C. too.

Jessica: Yes, I did! It’s why I started Grids. If it wasn’t a project that brought my data side, design side and my passion for working in community all together, I’d be on a totally different trajectory. I had to be a part of a process where all of those things came together and it made total sense. That was a huge leap of faith to be like, I’m going to start a business! I have no money! I’m just going to do it! (singing)

Tre: Just Aretha Franklin it…(laughs)

Jessica: Exactly, just Aretha Franklin it. And when you’re like black family members don’t get it when you say “art”, it makes them think that you’re going to be drawing pictures on the side of the highway or something…my family was definitely worried. It was not a conversation topic that I felt comfortable bringing up with my family. They loved me and supported me, but they definitely worried. They were very, very worried.

And because Smoketown, that neighborhood, since I grew up there and my grandmother was like a figurehead, there were so many people that felt like they raised me and so, I can never really talk about what I do because it connects with art, and they’re just like, you’re doodling, don’t you have another degree that’s more technical?

Tré: Right, I feel so demeaning when I describe what I do. I’m like, you know those letters you read? (laughing). I don’t really know what else to say.

Jessica: I ran into an interesting conversation last night at the after party where I was talking to one person who had seen my presentation and one person who had not. And the person who didn’t see my presentation was like, “oh so, what do you do?” and so, I usually say graphic designer with data, I’m a visual storyteller, so I just make visual metaphors using statistics. And he goes, “So you’re a filmmaker,” and I was like no, and I start talking about Grids and the clientele that I have and the kind of projects that I do, and he was like, “So you’re an artist.” And I’m like, kind of…what is this?

Tré: I’m usually offended any time someone calls me an artist. 

Jessica: Tell me about that!

Tré: I just feel like art is so personal and it doesn’t really have a value beyond oneself. But when you design for other people, it goes beyond yourself and what you want for yourself.

Jessica: Yeah, you gotta let it go and have it work for other people. That’s an interesting thing to bring up because I’ve definitely been contemplating about that, especially ever since the film that was played during yesterday’s presentation. We don’t have to go into that example specifically, but the communicative nature. I always operated under the idea that why would you make visuals unless you wanted to talk with people in some way, but it’s so true that fine arts is you making something using only your interior whatever, and then maybe people get it, and I’m not trying to demean art, but…

Tré: It has it’s purpose—

Jessica: It has it’s purpose—and sometimes it is trying to create those dialogues, but…

Tré: Like, I don’t really mean people like Hank Willis Thomas because his art is way beyond him, or artists like that. But if it’s like abstract stuff where people are just trying to make their own meaning, I don’t know.

Jessica: I don’t know either…like I can get behind some abstract stuff. Like earlier, when we were talking about what places or experiences we’ve had in different places, in that same trip, I ended up seeing this exhibit in Germany that was all of Basquiat’s paintings, drawings, notebooks, books that he had, just a display of so many things inside his world—even just objects that we’re just personal to him, and the one movie that he was in that was like a B movie, pretty terrible, but it’s adorable to watch him. But what I really found interesting is that when you first walk in there’s this blurb before the main segments of the work that was written by a friend of his, and I don’t remember who this dude was, he had written for some major publication as well, but when he talked about Basquiat’s work, he said that it was like a, and I don’t remember the exact words, but it was like a bebop infographic data cultural something-something—it was all these words together that I’ve never seen—but it was so true because he was so well-read, and had a specific context that he was making each piece for. So each piece had these notes of the information laid out in this very music rhythm sort of pattern. I’d never looked at it that way before.

Tré: I’ve never thought about that, but it does look like hand drawn data visualization before you digitized it.

Jessica: Yes—it’s like cubic bebop infographic, something—I want to remember the exact sentence because it was so good. I think I have a picture of the blurb that that guy wrote because it was so good. I also really appreciate that Basquiat did a lot of research in other graphic forms, but not just like art. One book that he referenced a lot is a book of symbols that people who are housing insecure use a lot. There are symbols that people write on the concrete to let you know that this is a safe space or whatever, and it’s a secret code that you might not notice when you’re walking down the street—something scribbled on the sidewalk or the wall or whatever—and he studied a lot of those coded symbols, which makes me wonder all the layers of all the stuff he does or did. He died so young.

Tré: I know. I’ll never forget I went to the portrait gallery in D.C. one time, and they were showcasing the collaboration he did with Andy Warhol and it was interesting to see that dynamic between the two because they’re complete opposites conceptually. But to see those two kind of melt together to create this one form, I don’t know, it kind of felt like they belonged together, even though they were complete opposites and all this clashing was going on, it just felt right. 

Jessica: They understood each other. There was a documentary that I saw that was mostly compilations of old footage of Basquiat, and I never realized the level of care that Andy Warhol had for Basquiat. I guess that narrative that Warhol found Basquiat in the gutter and made him what he is I think is so prominent…

Tré: Or do you remember the poster of he and Basquiat looking like a boxing poster? 

Jessica: Yes, like maybe they were like rivals, but no, they were super close, and Andy Warhol would constantly be like, okay, you’re doing too much, you’re way stressed out, here, like let’s take you to a quiet place away from the city, a little mini-vacay, you know, just spending time. He produced work at such a high rate and put so much pressure on himself that he felt his attachment to his addictions were necessary to produce consistently, which, whether or not you’re addicted to coffee or alcohol or drugs, I do think that plays a part in folks that are really ambitious.

Tré: Definitely, well, like you see all these musical artists that died so young, and I feel the same way about them—that fueled their addiction…Jessica, we got way off track.

Jessica: No, they said we can talk about anything!

Tré: Perfect. 

Jessica: I like the stuff we talked about. I just got organic because I don’t know how to answer some of these…what other two things happened? I think there are some, but I could write it better than I could tell it on the spot.

Tré: Yeah, it was good though. Well, one thing I’m looking into that I didn’t talk about, but one thing that I’m really interested in is what is “white”. Because white wasn’t always white. The Italians and Jews and Irish weren’t always considered “white” so I’m wondering what would diversity look like if they…separated themselves. You know what I mean? Like how does that change the demographics of the design industry. Like is it more diverse if we were to separate that? And how do we classify those people if they aren’t white? 

Jessica: That’s a good question. You even bringing that up makes me think, like one day, like you said, the Italians and Irish population weren’t considered white, are Asians going to be the next group that’s accepted in as white?

Tré: I mean I think it’s kind of getting like that—when I think back to Cheryl Miller’s article about Black design still missing in action, she talked about how Asians were immediately accepted into the design industry, but we were just kind of in the background. But I’m always curious what would happen if the Irish and Italian designers who are now considered white would start designing more based on their culture and their history, and like how much different that would make the design industry. Because you don’t see a lot of like, I mean everything you see that’s classified as Irish are super cliche, super ornamented Celtic knots, and clovers.

Jessica: Like the same two-dimensional stereotype of what people think of as Irish. I think that’s because once you get in that sphere of ‘you are white,’ like once you’re in that world, you don’t have to think about your culture, so you don’t think about your culture, and so you don’t have an emotional tie or artifacts or historical things that have emotional weight for you as much. I only say that because of the people that I know that are passing, that are like Hispanic but they look white, their connection to their culture is not really there unless they’re fighting for it. Which most of the time, if you don’t have to, why would you as a kid growing up? That’s a good thing, that you don’t have to.

Tré: I always look at diversity in design from the perspective of this one project I did and I think this is the project I’ve done that I’m most proud of, in terms of commercial work I’ve done. When I was with The Creative Group, I had the opportunity to rebrand the D.C. Jewish Community Center. And I always get asked, how did a black catholic get to brand a Jewish Community Center, and I’m like, that’s how diversity works when you’re anonymous. (laughing)

Jessica: Did you get to go meet with folks there?

Tré: Nope, I was working from home.

Jessica: You just had to design it?!

Tré: Yeah, I was working through a third party. I mean, I worked with the mediator, and I was working with another agency that closed down a couple of years ago. I was like wow, I’m so proud when I see them walking down the street, doing pride parades with the logo I did for them.

Jessica: Which is excellent!

Tré: I mean, if we can work together on that, we should be able to figure out anything.

Jessica: Right, we should be able to figure out anything. I wish. I wish!

Tré: Well, I think we’re good.

Jessica: I think we are.

“…when you design for other people, it goes beyond yourself and what you want for yourself.”